http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

To ze trzymaja "mlodziencow" ( 15 ) to juz wiadomo od dawna , sami sie do
tego przyznali , ale teraz wyszlo cos wiecej

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

----------------------
Newsday - May 26, 2004
U.S. using some Iraqis as bargaining chips      
------------------------------------------

Iraqi woman says U.S. imprisoned her husband - and said he'd go free
when her father surrenders

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- U.S. troops wanted Jeanan Moayad's father. When they
couldn't find him, they took her husband in his place.

Dhafir Ibrahim has been in U.S. custody for nearly four months. Moayad
insists he is being held as a bargaining chip, and military officials
have told her he will be released when her father surrenders. Her father
is a scientist and former Baath party member who fled to Jordan soon
after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

"My husband is a hostage," said Moayad, 35, an architect who carries a
small portrait of Ibrahim in her purse. "He didn't commit any crime."

Dozens detained

In a little-noticed development amid Iraq's prison abuse scandal, the
U.S. military is holding dozens of Iraqis as bargaining chips to put
pressure on their wanted relatives to surrender, according to human
rights groups. These detainees are not accused of any crimes, and
experts say their detention violates the Geneva Conventions and other
international laws. The practice also risks associating the United
States with the tactics of countries it has long criticized for
arbitrary arrests.

"It's clearly an abuse of the powers of arrest, to arrest one person and
say that you're going to hold him until he gives information about
somebody else, especially a close relative," said John Quigley, an
international law professor at Ohio State University. "Arrests are
supposed to be based on suspicion that the person has committed some
offense."

U.S. officials deny that there is a systematic practice of detaining
relatives to pressure Iraqi fugitives into surrendering. "The coalition
does not take hostages," said a senior military official who asked not
to be named. "Relatives who might have information about wanted persons
are sometimes detained for questioning, and then they are released.
There is no policy of holding people as bargaining chips."

But Iraqi human rights groups say they have documented dozens of cases
similar to Moayad's, in which family members who are not accused of any
crimes have been detained for weeks or even months and told that they
would be released only when a wanted relative surrenders to U.S. forces.

"We have many cases of Americans going to a house looking for someone,
and when they can't find him, they take another family member in his
place," said Bassem al-Rubaie, director of the Council of Legal Defense
Care, a group of Iraqi lawyers that has been campaigning for prisoner
rights. "This has been going on since the early days of the American
occupation."

Arrested 'by mistake'

In a recent report, the International Committee of the Red Cross quoted
military intelligence officers as saying that between "70 and 90
percent" of the nearly 8,000 Iraqis detained by occupation forces had
been arrested "by mistake." In some cases, the report found, U.S. troops
held people for several months after they had been cleared of
wrongdoing.

Human rights groups first criticized the United States for detaining the
relatives of wanted Iraqis in November, when U.S. forces arrested the
wife and daughter of Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, one of Hussein's longtime
deputies. After Hussein was captured last year, al-Douri became the most
wanted man in Iraq, and Washington put a ¤10 million bounty on his head.

Al-Douri's wife and daughter are still in U.S. custody, although rights
monitors say they have not been charged with any crime. "Taking hostages
is a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions - in other words, a war

Donald Rumsfeld in January.

The senior U.S. military official declined to discuss the detention of
al-Douri's relatives, saying it is a "special case with very unusual
circumstances." In the past, U.S. officials had likened the detentions
to those of a material witness who is held for questioning.

A form of 'moral coercion'

But rights monitors say there is no basis under international law for
holding family members as material witnesses. "That explanation is
dubious at best," said Alistair Hodgett, a spokesman for Amnesty
International USA.

Detaining a fugitive's relatives is a form of "moral coercion" forbidden
under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, according to Quigley. The
convention, which guarantees the rights of civilians under military
occupation, also prohibits punishing someone for an offense that he has
not personally committed.

In the 1970s and '80s, Washington frequently criticized the former
Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries for making arbitrary arrests and
for using relatives to exert pressure on fugitives and political
prisoners. In its latest report on human rights conditions around the
world, the State Department singled out Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Syria
for using such tactics.

By adopting similar methods in Iraq, experts say, Washington risks
losing a moral high ground. "It makes it difficult for the U.S. to
criticize other countries," Quigley said, "when it undertakes detentions
of this sort that so clearly exceed what is permitted by law."

One family's nightmare

International law leaves little recourse for civilians under occupation
to challenge wrongful detentions, something Moayad has become painfully
aware of.

Her plight began on Jan. 30 at 2:30 a.m., when two U.S. Humvees pulled
up to the door of her family's house as an Apache helicopter circled
overhead. The soldiers asked for her father, Abdullah, 66, an American-
educated geologist. Moayad insists that she does not know what U.S.
forces wanted from her father.

Moayad told the soldiers that her father had gone to neighboring Jordan
for prostate cancer surgery, and she showed them his medical records.
They arrested the only other man in the house: Moayad's husband.

"My husband told them several times, 'I'm not a troublemaker, I just
want to live in peace with my family,'" said Moayad, who was born in
Austin, Texas, where her father was working. She lived in the United
States until she was 5 years old.

Moayad has been married to Ibrahim, 45, for eight years. They have three
children, ages 2 to 7. Like many Iraqis, they live with their extended
family.

On Feb. 17, Moayad said, a group of soldiers delivered a handwritten
letter from Ibrahim. It said he was being transferred from a U.S. base
in Baghdad to Abu Ghraib prison "until the arrival of my father-in-law."

"Please tell him that I will be released when he arrives here, since I

law to surrender himself of his own free will. That will make things
much easier for him. They will not mistreat someone who surrenders of
his own free will. They only want to ask him some questions."

Since getting the letter, Moayad has made the 40-mile roundtrip journey
from Baghdad to Abu Ghraib 18 times. On most visits, she has stood
outside the gates with others waiting in vain for news about their
relatives. One soldier who felt sorry for her looked up Ibrahim's name
in the computer system and told her he was marked as a detainee with
"intel value."

Reminders of Hussein

Moayad, whose patchwork English is the legacy of her Texas childhood,
doesn't know what "intelligence value" means and how it might affect her
husband. But the Red Cross report documented a pattern of abuses -
including humiliation, hooding and threats of execution - against Iraqi
prisoners deemed to have an intelligence value.

"The American soldiers kept on telling me, 'Bring your father, and you
will get your husband back,'" said Moayad, her soft voice trailing off.
"How can they say that he's not a hostage?"

On May 15, her 18th visit to Abu Ghraib, Moayad finally got to see her
husband. Ibrahim told her he was being well treated, but he said that
military officials had forced him to write the letter pleading for his
father-in-law to surrender.

The tactic, Moayad said, reminded her of Hussein's regime. "The
Americans promised us that they would bring democracy and freedom. They
talked about the prisoners in Saddam's time, and we expected them to do
something better," she said. "But now they're doing the same thing, or
even worse."

| To ze trzymaja "mlodziencow" ( 15 ) to juz wiadomo od dawna , sami sie do
| tego przyznali , ale teraz wyszlo cos wiecej

| http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

i nie tylko: (przepraszam, ale nie mialem jeszcze czasu przetlumaczyc)

----------------------
Newsday - May 26, 2004
U.S. using some Iraqis as bargaining chips
------------------------------------------

A.

i nie tylko: (przepraszam, ale nie mialem jeszcze czasu przetlumaczyc)

branie zakladnikow praktykuja od kwietnia 2003 , nic nowego

| branie zakladnikow praktykuja od kwietnia 2003 , nic nowego

w przypadku al - douriego wzieli cala blizsza i dalsza rodzine i trzymaja
juz ponad rok

"no ale nie ma jeszcze inzyniera Mamon"

"to nic nie szkodzi, zaglosujmy teraz"

"tak to on przyjdzie, bedzie mial jakies kontraargumenty, wywiarze sie
niepotrzebna dyskusja"

"tak, bedzie sie bronil"

"tak, tak.."

A.

To ze trzymaja "mlodziencow" ( 15 ) to juz wiadomo od dawna , sami sie
do
tego przyznali , ale teraz wyszlo cos wiecej

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

| To ze trzymaja "mlodziencow" ( 15 ) to juz wiadomo od dawna , sami
sie do
| tego przyznali , ale teraz wyszlo cos wiecej

| http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

| i nie tylko: (przepraszam, ale nie mialem jeszcze czasu przetlumaczyc)

| ----------------------
| Newsday - May 26, 2004
| U.S. using some Iraqis as bargaining chips
| ------------------------------------------

Praktyka ta nazywa sie - z dawien dawna, jeszcze z czasow sredniowiecza,
czyli tych czasow, w ktorych zbrodni Oreza Polskiego doszukiwal sie
Osadnik aka Medrek - ta praktyka nazywa sie - branie zakladnika. Jest to
sprzeczne z Konwencja Genewaska i zalicza sie do zbrodni wojennych.

A.

| Praktyka ta nazywa sie - z dawien dawna, jeszcze z czasow sredniowiecza,
| czyli tych czasow, w ktorych zbrodni Oreza Polskiego doszukiwal sie
| Osadnik aka Medrek - ta praktyka nazywa sie - branie zakladnika. Jest to
| sprzeczne z Konwencja Genewaska i zalicza sie do zbrodni wojennych.

Tez  nowosci ,dawno juz brano jencow ,stwarzano z tego oddzialy janczarow i
widac z tego ze wojna bedzie dluga .Tez mamy swoj udzial w tym ,bierzemy
nawet dzieci do leczenia do szpitala w Gryficach , juz pojechaly nie
doleczone ,szkoda ze nie bylo pieniedzy na calosc leczenia.Teraz ostatnio
komandosi z Bielska zaprosili na tydzien dzieci z sierocinca z Iraku ,troche
to smutne ze to dzieci zawsze cierpia z powodu zabaw doroslych .

A.

| Tez  nowosci ,dawno juz brano jencow ,stwarzano z tego oddzialy
janczarow i
| widac z tego ze wojna bedzie dluga .Tez mamy swoj udzial w tym ,bierzemy
| nawet dzieci do leczenia do szpitala w Gryficach , juz pojechaly nie
| doleczone ,szkoda ze nie bylo pieniedzy na calosc leczenia.Teraz
ostatnio
| komandosi z Bielska zaprosili na tydzien dzieci z sierocinca z Iraku
,troche
| to smutne ze to dzieci zawsze cierpia z powodu zabaw doroslych .

Cierpisz na rasizm, szkoda. Nienawisc niszczy leb.

A.

Widze ze masz problemy z czytaniem ze zrozumieniem ,szkoda

| To ze trzymaja "mlodziencow" ( 15 ) to juz wiadomo od dawna , sami sie
do
| tego przyznali , ale teraz wyszlo cos wiecej

| http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34174,2165103.html

Nie tylko przetrzymują ale i torturują.
Zamykają ich razem z kryminalistami i pozwalają się znęcać.
Znęcają się też strażnicy, pałami i prądem.

T.

| Tez  nowosci ,dawno juz brano jencow ,stwarzano z tego oddzialy
janczarow i
| widac z tego ze wojna bedzie dluga .Tez mamy swoj udzial w tym
,bierzemy
| nawet dzieci do leczenia do szpitala w Gryficach , juz pojechaly nie
| doleczone ,szkoda ze nie bylo pieniedzy na calosc leczenia.Teraz
ostatnio
| komandosi z Bielska zaprosili na tydzien dzieci z sierocinca z Iraku
,troche
| to smutne ze to dzieci zawsze cierpia z powodu zabaw doroslych .

| Cierpisz na rasizm, szkoda. Nienawisc niszczy leb.

Widze ze masz problemy z czytaniem ze zrozumieniem ,szkoda

Oto w prowojennej Gazecie piszą o trzymaniu nieletnich jako zakładników,
internowanych, więźniów.
Następnie wiadomość z Newsday gdzie opisują praktykę brania zakładników
w Iraku. Piszą też o tym, że 70-90 procent z 8000 jest przypadkowo
zatrzymanych
i nieraz niewinni są przetrzymywani parę miesięcy zanim zostaną zwolnieni.
Poruszają sprawę rodziny Al-Douriego i przytaczają konkretne przypadki
bezprawnego uwięzienia.

Twój komentarz:
"Tez  nowosci ,dawno juz brano jencow ,stwarzano z tego oddzialy janczarow
i
widac z tego ze wojna bedzie dluga .Tez mamy swoj udzial w tym ,bierzemy
nawet dzieci do leczenia do szpitala w Gryficach , juz pojechaly nie
doleczone ,szkoda ze nie bylo pieniedzy na calosc leczenia.Teraz ostatnio
komandosi z Bielska zaprosili na tydzien dzieci z sierocinca z Iraku
,troche
to smutne ze to dzieci zawsze cierpia z powodu zabaw doroslych ."

Pierwsze zdanie - masz odlot? Widzisz jakieś odziały
janczarów (chrześcijańskich chyba?) w Iraku.

Drugie zdanie  - leczenie dzieci w polskich szpitalach przyrównać do ich
więzienia w strasznych warunkach, to trzeba mieć nieprawdopodobnie
spaczony
umysł.

Trzecie - nic nie wiadomo o tym żeby te dzieciaki były uprowadzone wbrew
woli.

Podsumowując: wracaj na drzewo albo na cztery łapy. Nie zapominaj o
goleniu
bo cię weterynarze pomylą z człekokształtnym i jeszcze kiedyś
zamkną w klatce w zoo.

| Widze ze masz problemy z czytaniem ze zrozumieniem ,szkoda
To już ustalono dawno temu, i panuje co do tego w miarę powszechna
zgoda. Zapraszam do dyskusji o transporterach, zaś trolle proponuję
zostawić w spokoju.

A.